heart of it all...

[deadhanddan]

eye for an eye moose

there is absolutely no doubt this freak commited the crimes. showed no remorse * i saw the vids of him and his attorney *

what is cruel and unusual is life w/o possiblty of parole in solitary confinement 23 hour lockdown * which is exactly what this guy will be facing if he didnt strike a plea deal when revealing the location of his victim's remains * . takes deranged individuals and makes them even more psychotic. in these instances one can argue that death is the more merciful option. of course he didnt show any such mercy to the 4 he killed+mutilated+kidnapped+own


yes there is the need for appeals and such but when you have a guy such as this who has already been proven w/o a doubt guilty then why waste mine, theirs , his, everyones time and money on the obvious

[Sporting_Lisbon]

Ok, so let's say we got the right guy. But what about redemption? Should an act of madness define the rest of his life? After 25 years in prison, with the help of a psychiatrist this man might be able to finally start contributing for the improvement of his community. We, as a society, are a whole and shouldn't just keep people out because they dont "fit". We also need to understand why the man did what he did so that in the future perhaps other cases can be prevented.

[deadhanddan]

wronged once - shame on them

wronged twice - shame on you


i respect and support the idea of '' rehabilitation '' for non violent individuals or for those that committed accidental/unintentional crimes. but we are talking of multiple murder and kidnapping of an extreme perverted nature. as if this crap he pulled wasnt enough , he just got off parole for serving 8 years for aggravated arson - burned down an appartment complex * they took a gamble on him being ''rehabilitated'' and look @ what happened...*


by your logic , would you pettition the release of say Jeffrey Dahmer
Ted Burkowitz ? iif they were still alive that is

[huGGy]

Just because of our inner feelings we gain the legitimation to decide about live and death? We did this before and it helped nothing. Infact, alot of not guilty people died. I don't blame you on your attitude, it's just that i'm happy we don't have the official death sentence here. That i, as a person, would like to kill the guy who did this to my family is out of the question. But at least the society tries to provide this eye for an eye attitude.

[deadhanddan]

i just cant get the idea of soft approach to punishment.

did a time out in the corner ever really motiivate someone to stop doing dumb stuff? hardly ever no

[Soccerman771]

My view is this - the death penalty serves three purposes:

1 - It permanently removes the person from the society that they cannot be a part of as demonstrated by their actions.

2 - It serves as punishment for the crime. Morality has nothing to do with it.

3 - It demonstrates that society will not tolerate the actions that the person has committed in the most deterrent way possible.

I know what 'stats' say about reducing crime through the death penalty. However, not one person that has been executed has ever committed another crime.

The death penalty is a very valid punishment for several individuals.

[wicked_assassin]

I understand both sentiments, it's first true that it's more expensive, is irreversibele, etc...

But for some inviduals, then i'm talking about 1 of 10 million criminals,, i think death penality is suitable. That would be for true maniacs. I'm talking about people who lake any sense of moral code. If you think such people can be helped with a psychiatrist then you are foolish.

Serial killers or killers who kill whitout logic are an exception i gladly whant to make. Besides as someone who doesn't hope for life afther death, death means the ultimate punishment.

Other people who kill with a logic (even greed is a logic) can be rehabilitated.

I whant to say one other thing: death penalty doesn't work, but prisons also don't work.

Their is no really good alternative to handel criminals.

[huGGy]

[quote=""deadhanddan""]i just cant get the idea of soft approach to punishment.

did a time out in the corner ever really motiivate someone to stop doing dumb stuff? hardly ever no[/quote]

You wanna compare 40+ years in jail with a time out in a corner?

[LaZy]

The way I c it is as follows:

a) there is a political POV about this subject. U either c it as black or u c it as white. There is no grey in this matter. U are either 4 or ur against the death penalty. Period. What forces me 2 the clear side of NOT being 4 it is simple. I, as a pure believer in democracy, and thus can not accept a single person having been killed by a so called modern society that was actually innocent. If that means that the guilty should walk free then so be it, but I simply can not accept an innocent man being for a crime he did not commit. If that person is killed, ie irreversibly paying for that crime then we ( as a society) have done more injustice than justice!

b) being as man of faith (yes this may come as a shock 2 alot of u) I am a firm believer of a sentiment that my Portuguese future colleague mentioned, namely repentance! Another strong term necessary 2 get my point across is forgiveness! The late pope J. P II was able 2 forgive his killer (in fact he actually made it 2 freedom earlier this year). I realize that this notion of forgiveness seems, at first, far fetched but it is something I truly believe in. Naturally looking at this issue from afar (ie Ive never actually been anywhere near a situation that occurred in Mount Vernon personally) it seems somewhat easy for me 2 think the way I do, but it is with faith, lots of it, that I would grab onto into 2 keep this line of thought should I ever have 2 go through something anywhere similar 2 this. It really must be a living hell, and it is precisely in these situations that we need 2 stand firm and set aside our natural human anger and TRY 2 stay human. We must not act like the animals that have brought this situation about.

c)Punishment. Does the person/ animal/ beast that did this need 2 b punished? Sure he does. But what exactly does that mean. If he caused physical pain should he be required 2 pay that same pain back? The sentimental pain he caused 2 the families of the victims, does he need 2 go through something similar? Will it bring back the dead? Will it make the victims families feel any better? All these questions are, above anything else, very subjective! If my oldest son slaps his 11 month old baby brother should I slap him back or shout at him? Should I take away the toys he has in his hands and put him in a corner? What is the prupose here? What is the lesson 2 be learnt? This is why, again as Sporting mentioned, rehabilitation is so important. Naturally I aint fonna slap my son. Id do exactly 2 him what Im trying 2 get him not 2 do in the 1st place! Would it b my natural instinct 2 slap him back. Sure it would. What would b the lesson learnt? Nothing. Nothing at all. So the punishment, that I c fit, needs 2 b that of getting the point across that he simply is not allowed 2 slap his younger, defenseless brother! Ok ur right LaZy u simply cant compare this child situation with the horrific crimes committed by the sick ******* that did it! Correct u r. However the principle, and this is what guides us through our lives. I lead my life through principles, and as such, I believe that this animal needs 2 be taught that what he did is simply not acceptable. Will he ever learn his lesson? most likely not. But we as individuals have the obligation 2 at least try. If we dont then, again in my eyes, we are not much different then the animals we are disgusted by!

Its a very difficult subject. It is above anything else a philosophical 1, and as such open 2 debate, and Im sure we can at least all agree on the following: neither parties here are absolutely right neither wrong.

My prayers go, naturally, 2 the families, but ALSO 2 the animal that did this, since he clearly needs and deserves help.

out

[froggyman]

yeah i mean the fact that you could kill the wrong guy is enough of a reason for me to not have capital punishment.

[jerom]

What if we don't see prison as a punishment. I mean what lazy also said, is that it actually isn't right to do something back that someone did to you, for example if you stole my AoE account, I would not be allowed to steal your AoE account, that would just still be bad. This is a general rule in the society, which however seems to be contradicted by the law, if you see prison as a punishment tho.

But maybe we shouldn't look at prison like a punishment, but like a way to keep someone away from the society and preventing him from doing more damage by locking him away. The crime depends for how long he should be locked away.

If you'd actually agree with me that prison's biggest purpose isn't punishment, then you should definitely not be supporting the Capital punishment.

[deadhanddan]

i dont get how ppl can think that those who do commit such atrocious acts can ever be allowed to re enter society or place such value on their life when the offender(s) disregard for others is such that they can commit such hienous crimes w/o remorse



and +1 to soccerman's post - well said

[Soccerman771]

[quote=""jerom""]What if we don't see prison as a punishment. I mean what lazy also said, is that it actually isn't right to do something back that someone did to you, for example if you stole my AoE account, I would not be allowed to steal your AoE account, that would just still be bad. This is a general rule in the society, which however seems to be contradicted by the law, if you see prison as a punishment tho.

But maybe we shouldn't look at prison like a punishment, but like a way to keep someone away from the society and preventing him from doing more damage by locking him away. The crime depends for how long he should be locked away.

If you'd actually agree with me that prison's biggest purpose isn't punishment, then you should definitely not be supporting the Capital punishment.[/quote]

Texas has a long history of prison reform.. Rehabilitation of prisoners does not work.

Part of the 'goal' of prison IS punishment. The other, is to keep people out of society.

[jerom]

[quote=""Soccerman771""][quote=""jerom""]What if we don't see prison as a punishment. I mean what lazy also said, is that it actually isn't right to do something back that someone did to you, for example if you stole my AoE account, I would not be allowed to steal your AoE account, that would just still be bad. This is a general rule in the society, which however seems to be contradicted by the law, if you see prison as a punishment tho.

But maybe we shouldn't look at prison like a punishment, but like a way to keep someone away from the society and preventing him from doing more damage by locking him away. The crime depends for how long he should be locked away.

If you'd actually agree with me that prison's biggest purpose isn't punishment, then you should definitely not be supporting the Capital punishment.[/quote]

Texas has a long history of prison reform.. Rehabilitation of prisoners does not work.

Part of the 'goal' of prison IS punishment. The other, is to keep people out of society.[/quote]

Actually, I think it shouldn't serve as punishment, because if you would really want to punish someone, shut him for example off from his family or do other things like that.

But again, you can only agree with me if you agree with the fact that prison shouldn't serve as punishment.

I must say though, I can understand the way of thinking when you are for the capital punishment, and I think it's extremely hard to get out of this discussion all happy and all agreed with eachother.

[wicked_assassin]

? what the hell are you talking about. Prison is first to remove someone from society with the focus to protect society. Secondly it's a punishment. Some people just don't have any morality and have to be kept in line with the danger of prison.

Of cource it's unnecesairy to lock away non-violent criminals. For example for frauds a alternative punishment is a better solution then locking them away in a prison with murders.