Civ Strength according to Drew

[36drew]

Here is my honest opinion of civ strength from strongest to weakest:

1) China
2) Dutch
3) Spain
4) Japan
5) Sioux
6) Iro
7) France
8) Britain
9) Ottoman
10) Ports
11) Russia
12) India
13) Aztec

[Navarone_Guy]

I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. Aztecs aren't that bad. They have a strong mace spam in age 2 and OP ERK in age 3 and beyond. You also forgot Germans. Russia also has a very strong strelet rush still.

1. China
2. Dutch
3. Iroquois
4. Spanish
5. Sioux
6. Japan
7. French
8. Russia
9. Aztecs
10. Ottomans
11. British
12. Ports
13. Germans
14. India

[ZoRPrimE]

Nav's list is almost perfect I give Dutch higher than China because Dutch is almost = to China and > every other civ. China is < Sioux very slightly better than dutch and > than all other civs. Also Sioux and Iroquois would have to switch places. Now that I look Germans are probably too low as well.

Of course to be perfect you'd need a cross reference table that showed civ vs. civ and gave >,<,=, and >= could be slight edge to one.


Here's other civ's rank from a China players prespective. With the following ><= ranks. Sioux>China, Dutch<= China, Everything else < China
1)Sioux
2)Dutch
3)Aztec
4)France, Iro, Germany, Russia
5)Britain, India

Otto's and Ports left out due to lack of experience vs them but <China still applies.

[kingchrisII]

japaan spain ??? left out lol

my list:

1. China
2. Dutch
3. Sioux
4. Iro
5. spanish
6. japan
7. french
8. ottos
9. british
10. german
11. aztec
12. russians
13.ports
14.indians

i'd say thats about right. i rekon french are like perfectly balanced

[I__CHAOS__I]

on an overall level:

1. Dutch
2. Sioux
3. China (actually, people are starting to find better strats vs them now)

4. Spain
5. Japan

6. Iro
7. France
8. Otto

9. German (still a very good xbow spam imho)
10. Russia

11. Aztec
12. Brits
13. India
14. Ports

The only tricky one to rank is Brits...

[ZoRPrimE]

[quote=""I__CHAOS__I""]on an overall level:

3. China (actually, people are starting to find better strats vs them now)

[/quote]
I agree there are a lot more competitive strats coming up vs. China since it's the main antogonist! I had a 57 minute game that resulted in a loss vs. a French FF player. was hoping to get .4 PR to make 1st LT and was denied. Granted a Dutch FF would be 3x stronger, the French FF was still quite effective.

Aztec seem to be averaging a lower ranking than has been my experience. Is it just because post initial rush there units don't hold up?

[Sporting_Lisbon]

No way, China is number 1 :\

1 - China

2 - Dutch
3 - Sioux, Spain

4 - French, Japs, Otto, Iro
5 - Germans, Aztec
6 - Ports, Brits, Russia, India


Well numbers 4 and 5 some civs are better than other civs (Japs I know I know...) but they are all somewhat close to each other, it depends on the match-up.

[ZoRPrimE]

[quote=""Sporting_Lisbon""]No way, China is number 1 :\
.[/quote]
That is a solid arguement..... :roll:

[Navarone_Guy]

Dutch may be too strong overall, but it could never compare to the true lameness of the Chinese. In my first game in over a month with China, I flattened a level 37 French colonel with shipments and disciples alone without even trying. I didn't micro at all and killed him about 8 to 1. No way in hell Dutch is stronger than that.

[I__CHAOS__I]

[quote=""Navarone_Guy""]Dutch may be too strong overall, but it could never compare to the true lameness of the Chinese. In my first game in over a month with China, I flattened a level 37 French colonel with shipments and disciples alone without even trying. I didn't micro at all and killed him about 8 to 1. No way in hell Dutch is stronger than that.[/quote]
I'm sorry, but then that guy must have been drugged or something... :roll: What the hell did he do? no cuirs? no xbow harras + tirailleur?
I do agree china is very strong and the strats are easy, but dutch is just overall stronger without such a weakness vs heavy cav.

[Navarone_Guy]

He DID go xbow harrass. I just hid around my TC and there was nothing he could do. I just sent arquebuses and flanked him from behind with my disciples. He tried to fight, but there was nothing he could do against my incredible lameness.

[ZoRPrimE]

Looking through your rated game history I see you beating Mike888 28.4 and sorcK China 28.1 with Dutch

I see kingkieran PR 35.1 beating you twice with China but he also beat you with Russians and plays Aztecs most.

and I see Adjeking beating you with china he's PR 39 and wins most his 1v1's with Japan. So in your rated games I'm not seeing low ranked China people owning you or you rolling over higher ranked people with your infrequent use of china.

Sounds to me like a good chance the game you're reffering to is a one off? It was either a unrated practice or the guy you played vs. has long since lost his rank! Of course I don't know for certain you could have tons of practice games where it's an easy own when you play China. Xbow harass? what about FF skirms this guy was Dutch right? If I'm not mistaken Xbow harass is one of Nav's specialties you would if anyone know best how to counter it. You're game serves as a good example of diciple OP but maybe not a good example of China>Dutch overall?! If you lured a same rank player into a pincer of xbows and hussars results would be similar I'd guess.


I've gone through some random samplings at elo of the top 200 china 1v1 players and they are generally only beating Dutch players they are rated better than and even losing to lesser rated dutch players.

Dutch eco and units are stronger, China has a early military edge but if they can't turn that edge into a win in a short time they'll be owned by dutch. China has a strong weakness mid/late game to Heavy Calv and eco won't keep up with Dutch!

I think the objective evidence really leads to Dutch being on top. Due to no real hole in thier game overall.
Recent games I'm seeing, show China being less able to diciple lame vs. the 3-4 civs that have a chance vs. china.

[luukje]

China FF is so easy to beat with dutch 2/3 bank FF. Ive gone from 1650 ELo to 1725 by beating 5 players like that.
The only thing that can save them is the handmortars shipment so they can shell my base from a distance.

On topic: if you are my lvl (pr 20-25) balance is another thing than for players lvl 35 +. Games are decided on mistakes more than OP or UP. Ranking civs 1 by 1 is very hard. I like to place them in tiers:

Tier 1: Strong, can perform easy (lame?) game winning strats that have no direct counter: China (old han rush, disciple FF, handmortar spam), Spain (FF shipment spam), Dutch (2/3/4 bank FF), Sioux (axe rider/wakina spam), Iro (FF forrest prowler spam),
Tier 2: Balanced, no obvious weakness, no easy strats: France, Japan, Russia (strelet spam and sevastopol still strong on my level)
Tier 3: Balanced but just a bit harder to play: Brits, Ports both of them require very good micro most of the time lacking at my level, germany (just a bit slow)
Tier 4: Unbalanced: India to weak, Otto (balanced on TP maps, weak on non TP maps), aztec (ERK unit is making aztec look better than they are, they have some fine special feats, but they need a remapping of their military balance)

[Sporting_Lisbon]

China beats Dutch because of handmortars. The China guy FFs, gets all that army of discs, arquebusiers, changdaos, etc, ships 7 handmortars and camps by the dutch base killing everything. There goes the dutch turtle...

[luukje]

When they do that, dont garrison your settlers, wait until you have an army yourself, attack his army and call minutemen targetting his hand mortars, they do double damage.

If you can take out his army, game is about even and best player will win. Dutch mercs come in handy.

But you need to do a 2/3 bank FF, 4 is just to slow for that.

But lot of chinese are lazy and get there army in your base, and then you can play colonial militia and own him hard.