First balance patch officially announced + balance details

[Bart331]

If you manage to make just enough units to counter those early pushes you mostly will be a head, the games you loose will often be short and the games you win will be long. The most difficult part of playing zerg is to know when you can make drones and when you should make units. I mostly go quick lair to get an overseer to scout his base, also if i see someone's is on one base only for a long time i always start to make defences
, if they go for 2 bases I will often claim a third base relatively soon. Most difficulties i have so far are with tank/marine/medivac pushes, so i am quite happy the tanks got nerfed.

And lategame ultra are insane they go through anything.

[Gomezd]

Overall I liked the patch, was hoping for some sort of nerf to stimpacks tho, they make playing terran hell.

The zealot train time increase seemed a bit unecessary but dont think its a big deal.

Regarding ultras: just because they are rarely out doesn't mean they shouldn't be changed, claiming that just because you cant get there easily doesn't mean you shouldn't fix them I want all aspects of the game to be balanced even rarely used ones.

[Aaryn_GenD]

it is not rarely used, it is very often used, given the game goes end mid-lategame. and i think there will be more changes than just those, fixing mmm.
also the key with ultralisks is having 3-5 not just 1 or 2, they get 3x more effective as the number grows, 1 might shot down before he reaches his target, but the rest of them will be dealing out tremendous amount of damage.
same with falconets or mahout lancers in aoe3, their effectiveness grows nearly exponentially with their numbers^^

[KingKaramazov]

[quote=""Bart331""]
And lategame ultra are insane they go through anything.[/quote]

this simply hasn't been my experience. i've tried using ultras more since reading your post to see if perhaps i had written them off, but no, they really do suck against weaker units considering how expensive they are. sure, they're the best unit the zerg has for countering heavy mech like thors and collosi, but in pretty much any situation i'd rather have a brood lord.

ultralisks get own by large masses of weak units like zealots and terran infantry balls, which is totally counter-intuitive. earlier today i was slowly overwhelmed by a terran player who went straight up marine / medivac / siege tank even though i had more bases and was pumping out ultras with ling / baneling support as much as i could. the terran army was simply cheaper and easier to replace, plus far more mobile. the only way to deal with the rines at all was banelings, ultras couldn't touch them. ultras were more useful against the tanks but those were usually safely hidden behind the infantry.

ultras don't make sense as an armor counter, especially since they are countered by anti-armor units; they get beaten rather handily by massed tier 1 units like rines / rauders and zealots, which is pretty disappointing considering part of their appeal, originally at least, was their strong aoe melee attack. i keep wanting ultras to be the tier 3 answer to what banelings do for you at tier 1 (banelings become much less useful / inefficient later in the game when aoe / ranged is more prevalent), but instead they are much more a niche unit meant to destroy buildings and counter heavy mech.


long story short, everytime i go for ultras i find myself wishing i had just spent the resources on brood lords. pretty much anything i could use an ultra for, a brood lord would have done better, especially in larger numbers. brood lords are much more difficult to kill, too, and synergize well with corruptors (given their cost, size, and pop requirement, ultras don't synergize well with much of anything).


meh.

[KingKaramazov]

[quote=""Gomezd""]

Regarding ultras: just because they are rarely out doesn't mean they shouldn't be changed, claiming that just because you cant get there easily doesn't mean you shouldn't fix them I want all aspects of the game to be balanced even rarely used ones.[/quote]

my point is, they should be worried about balancing zerg so they can more consistently reach the late game instead of worrying about what they do when they get there.

a great example of this poor balancing strategy is how they super nerfed roaches by making them 2 pop because supposedly in late game mass armies of 1 pop roaches was overpowered. well, that's fine, but they did nothing to compensate for the fact that suddenly roaches were way weaker early game.

[Aaryn_GenD]

maybe you are using them in an ineffecient way then kingkaramazov?
i saw cool using ultralisks vs TtheStC terran, by far the most dangerous terran and he found a use for them. you have to use ultralisks in conjunction with your main army, only then can they shine, you can't expect to send 5 -6 ultralisks only at your opponents army and call it a day, they are fine as they are and tehy received a little change, when you look closely at the patch notes.
oh and don't forget their chitin upgrade, trust me, the chitin armor upgrade from the ultralisk cavern + level 1&2 zerg armor makes them like huge tanks, they soak any amount of damage and barely go down.

[KingKaramazov]

[quote=""Aaryn_GenD""]maybe you are using them in an ineffecient way then kingkaramazov?
i saw cool using ultralisks vs TtheStC terran, by far the most dangerous terran and he found a use for them. you have to use ultralisks in conjunction with your main army, only then can they shine, you can't expect to send 5 -6 ultralisks only at your opponents army and call it a day, they are fine as they are and tehy received a little change, when you look closely at the patch notes.
oh and don't forget their chitin upgrade, trust me, the chitin armor upgrade from the ultralisk cavern + level 1&2 zerg armor makes them like huge tanks, they soak any amount of damage and barely go down.[/quote]

I'm not an idiot, I don't just throw the ultralisks at the enemy alone, and yes, I'm aware of the chitin upgrade.

Like I said, I'd rather have brood lords in pretty much any situation. Ultras only seem useful against thors, colossus, and perhaps massed tanks / stalkers. I'd still probably prefer brood lords with corrupter support against those.

[Aaryn_GenD]

well that is what ultras are for lol i think you are expecting too much from just a single unit^^ cut down your requirements and it all good :-P
that sad, broodlords had 275 hp before, now 225.

[Bart331]

Check this replay:

http://www.aoe3clan.com/index.php?name= ... pic&t=4856

And u will see ultra's lategame are really usefull, and broodlords are good as well but it takes even longer before those units are available , plus they are really vulnerable against vikings/phoenixes.

[LaZy]

[quote=""KingKaramazov""]

...Ultras only seem useful against thors, colossus, and perhaps massed tanks / stalkers ...[/quote]

but that is exactly what theyre designed for.

out

[36drew]

Any idea when this patch is coming out? I haven't had much time to play lately but i'm still really excited for it!

[Aaryn_GenD]

[quote=""36drew""]Any idea when this patch is coming out? I haven't had much time to play lately but i'm still really excited for it![/quote]

they said mid september

[KingKaramazov]

[quote=""Aaryn_GenD""]well that is what ultras are for lol [/quote]

a) they cost way too much to fulfill that small of a role
b) that role is filled better / more efficiently by infesters and roaches. with lower tech, i might add.

[quote=""LaZy""][quote=""KingKaramazov""]

...Ultras only seem useful against thors, colossus, and perhaps massed tanks / stalkers ...[/quote]

but that is exactly what theyre designed for.

out[/quote]

Actually, not really. It's a perversion of their original purpose / design from SC1. In SC1 the purpose of the ultra was as a tank / choke buster / tier 1 unit killer. That made a looot more sense. They didn't even have AoE attack in SC1; with that addition it seemed natural that they'd be even more effective in SC2. Instead, they're even more of a niche unit.

It seems Blizzard couldn't find a good role for the Ultra after they created the roach (which does a lot of the same stuff the Ultra originally did only more efficiently and at lower tech), so they forced it into the role it currently inhabits...not very well, I might add.

[Aaryn_GenD]

KK, if ultras were as bad as you say, the best players wouldn't use them...........

[KingKaramazov]

[quote=""Aaryn_GenD""]KK, if ultras were as bad as you say, the best players wouldn't use them...........[/quote]

Always a good argument, Aaryn.

The best players use them for lack of better options, but everywhere I've read it is agreed that Ultras are lacking (even among better players).